Renown Discussion

I have no doubt at all that the current Renown items and prices will be changing. We've tried to make sense of them as best we can, but our best is pretty much just a blind guess.

This thread will probably be more useful after we see the average numbers of troops lost, and how much renown is appropriate to give out... but, now that you've played with it a little in starting out, what do you think of the current price balances?

I really like the renown spending idea, but I feel that some of the prices are skewed either too much or too little.

Which ones? I think every price has been modified at least once by now.

I get the feeling that arms and armour are too much (it might be worthwhile to create a full equipment list... especially as that would need to be used for the Adventurer system anyway!), troops are not enough, and assets are too cheap. What might be useful is create a chart of "expected rewards per quest", and then decide how many events each item should take to buy.

Bear in mind that there would be more than 1 quest per major event.

--> Veccavi Invasion (Event)
---> Shadow Legion Holds (Quest)
---> Eventide Charge (Quest)
---> Ranger use ballistae (Quest)
---> Rangers set up fire (Quest)
---> Fire backfires (Quest)
---> Arrival of Allies (End of event)

I know that this isn't in the format you will likely use here, but it still shows a decent break down of all the player interactions which would likely be rewarded with Renown.

--> Veccavi Invasion (Event) : Acceptance, 10 Renown
---> Shadow Legion Holds (Quest) : Dangerous action, 20 Renown
---> Eventide Charge (Quest) : Very dangerous action, 40 Renown
---> Ranger use ballistae (Quest) : Creative, but backfires slightly, 10 Renown
---> Rangers set up fire (Quest) : Creative, 15 Renown
---> Fire backfires (Quest) : Ooops, -10 Renown (all)
---> Arrival of Allies (End of event)

Event Renown;
Silvermists earn : 10+10+15-10 = 25 Renown
Eventide earn : 10+40-10 = 40 Renown
Legion earn : 10+20-10 = 20 Renown
Average earning : 25+40+20 = 85/3 = 28 Renown

You can then decide how much renown would be awarded per Quest, and therefore per Event, and create an average which is the standard the pricing system should work from. Once this baseline is established you can begin tweaking it through play, just be upfront with players that this is an ongoing process!

EDIT : Plus don't forget bonuses, for instance the Silvermists showed mercy to the Krom and Kral, and allowed them to settle a region. This would give them some Renown, likewise looting the battlefield. The memorial would then grant a further one time bonus to all participants.

That's an excellent way to break it down, thank you! What PCs wish to purchase will also have a role in prices too. Troop inflation was my main fear, but if everyone prefers to purchase items and assets at the expense of their warband size, we will have to reduce the price of troops.

I had wanted to run a kind of walkthrough playtest before launch, but it was difficult to try to set up. After the first event I hope we'll have a better idea of how to make this set up. My somewhat arbitrary prediction of how much renown will be earned in this first event is in the range of 75-200 with the current price ranges.

But we'll also have to decide whether we award renown in small increments for each action, or in single payments and more holistically when the impact of the PCs actions are more easily measured.

I would strongly suggest that Command is used to control the number of people a Player can control. Further more I would break down the number of "slots" a unit uses. So lets assume that 1 Command = 3 Slots. These can be filled as follows;

Warband : 3 Slots (ie 1 Command level)
Foreign troops : 2 Slots (language barrier)
Order Knights : 2 Slots (They demand more attention)
Order Squires / Adventurers : 1 Slots

Therefore Players can choose smaller, elite units or larger lower level ones.

Fred the Fantastic, Command II : 6 Slots
1 Fierdsvain Warband (3)
1 Adventurer (their NPC companion; 1)
1 Order Knight

Joe the Justified, Command I : 3 Slots
1 Order Knight (2)
1 Order Squire (1)

Callum the Commander, Command IV : 12 Slots
1 Ravenstern Warband (3)
1 Fierdsvain Warband (3)
2 Order Knights (4)
2 Order Squires (2)

With smaller units that this system encourages (except the Warbands, but they are somewhat of a different beast), the RP is more about the actions of the Player Character, and not his sending off a million men to fight the battle for them.

I'm using the Aftermath system for the Command levels;
Command Level should be I - VII as below

I : Normal Command Ability
II : Natural Command Ability

0 : Inexperienced Commander
I : Tested Commander (Normal)
II : Experienced Commander (Advanced)
III : Veteran Commander (Exceptional)

I : Duke / Grandmaster
II : King

Troops should be around to support the PCs though. Having a few dozen troops allows for single players to have a larger impact. I agree that we shouldn't see players with even a hundred troops in most circumstances.

Edit: How do the rest of you envision troop numbers, ideally? Perhaps a poll would be helpful on this issue...

Poll is a good idea, I find it hard to judge. I actually started out with 7 slots per Command when writing the above suggestion but toned it down, heh. I would keep warbands fair large, and keep them requiring 1 Command level each (with the free one from the Keep not requiring Command).

Mordred took the words out of my mouth. 5 masterwork weapons shouldn't amount to the same renown cost as a keep, IMO. I like the idea of an overall renown gain based on some quests, with it being kept track of in small increments, but being actually awarded in a larger amount (e.g end of event, end of major quest, checkpoints )

My assumption at the outset was that people would be more focused on getting troops, and with some losses in the events, there would be a kind of natural upkeep cost associated with them. Thus people would priorities whether they'd rather focus on having great equipment for themselves or saving for the keep. It's appearing that was a poor assumption, though we haven't gone through the losses yet. >.> If the trend continues, the prices of equipment and assets will definitely have to be re-evaluated.

Well, they're all being re-evaluated now anyway.

Given the results of the poll, are there any objections to reducing the number of starting Retainers from 15 to 10? (this means you would all subtract 5 retainers now.

Isabel Tenorio wrote:

Given the results of the poll, are there any objections to reducing the number of starting Retainers from 15 to 10? (this means you would all subtract 5 retainers now.

No, I'll distract them immediatly!

If you don't mind I'll dedicate some time to the renown system today.

About masterwork equipment: in current-day Earth, a handmade katana costs about the same as a car. Now picture that same sword made by a Japanese master smith - Hattori Hanzo, if you wish. So I think masterwork weapons should indeed be expensive.

@ Jing: I agree, you should raise the cost so that they are close to the Noldor Weapons. Noldor cost 100 so Masterwork should be at least 70 Renown. And Masterwork or Noldor weapons are extremely rare so you could get a small bonus when someone sees you with one of them.

The whole renown system is getting fresh eyes to re-work it. Sadly this may mean you'll all need to re-spend your starting renown.

oh no the work of years will be in vain ... I don't think I will be able to master this herculean task again

Eh, I don't mind too much.

Question, slightly related to renown. When Dragons are mentioned it's almost always with Dragon Destriers (or something like that)... could such a mount be added to the spending part? I feel awkward riding a sourthern horse in the snowy slopes of the proud north.

I thought the Dragon horse was already in. Or maybe it is only in the system that Jing Ming created. I will have a look.

Whether or not it is added to the renown system for others, Dragon Knights will start with one by default though.

It's in my system, in the part it was copied from Mordred horse rules from Aftermath. It's just not in the renown system. I'll add it in this very minute.

EDIT: I'll add it too the revised list.

The revised Renown list is now up. The main change is that some items may now be 'upgraded' into others, which means they must also be purchased before the upgraded version is purchased. Some upgrades are also excluded from that 'purchase a more expensive item for all your starting renown' option. Additionally, PCs now start with their choice of armor and weapon type free.

Adventurers also require that all of their equipment be purchased by you... but at a 50% discount. Consider them to be your NPC Companions. After the first event when the renown required to really work with them will be available, we'll have to conclude what their weapon skill level is (good, exceptional, master, etc).

After a few PMs, I've unilaterally decided to boost the starting renown from 20 to 50. Sue me, Admins and Lore Writers! ( )

Also, how do you all feel about including Masterwork/Lordly upgrades in the 'buy it for all of your starting renown' category? It's been a very popular choice, and our purpose isn't to make you grind like in an MMO. (Well, you can't really grind even if you were so inclined...) However, it is powerful and is surely an 'endgame' type of purchase.

Well, I guess most would know my opinion about that. I'd rather have Icebreath than a fortress filled with knights.

Though there's always a way to 'not use it' until I can buy it with the earned renown.. so whatever you decide.

You can always use the same sword the whole time, and the Masterwork trait will simply make it better from a game mechanics standpoint. I understand the immersion of having game mechanics match the IC side though. It's very nice when they match up, and that is one of our goals for this RP.

What about the rest of you?

Also, Adventurers equipment will go down from being purchased at a 50% discount to a 75% discount. (Thus 25% of what a PC's equipment is purchased) They are intended to act more as companions or part of the PCs personal retinue than as normal troops.. but they can also die, and likely will. Sooo. There is that. They were originally at 25% instead of 50%, but well, discussions took place. Now I'm taking advantage of being the only one online! (*evil laugh* No, I'm not drunk with power... of course not..)

I see no problem with giving a single Masterwork weapon if it is an ancestral heirloom, however they should either have to spend all their renown on it, or take a "Scion of House X" trait.