Renown Discussion

Why could members of the same order not do that? Example: The Radiant cross Knights decide to purchase enough land over time in a village nearby the Fortress-Hospital to use for herb production, an armory or something else discovered vi the RP. (Insert logical reasons for other Orders as needed) I don't see that as much of a stretch, unlike how if the Dawn and Eventide tried that everyone would probably end up dead and on fire.

I'd like to build the village instead of buy it... spend more renown on it if necessary.

The 100 renown would be for the permission to do it.. and ofcourse, the title.

Building a village up would take decades. Unless one is a powerful ruler and able to force resettlement. The stone keep alone is enough of a stretch.

Buying a plot of land would fall under an economic asset rather than the village itself. Mordred put it into better words than I've been able to. It's a landed political holding. There are those exceptions that I mentioned, such as the Order holding the land itself, but the PC is the local official. The Dawn could have a Commandery, for instance. The other Orders can have similar set-ups.

A quick overview courtesy of the always-accurate wikipedia... : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commandry_%28feudalism%29

It seems to me that you already have a solid hold on what the answers should be.

So a recap:

1.No trading renown
2. Some things such as a ship and economic assets may be shared.
3. Villages cannot be "ruled" by a PC, though they may have a position of authority since the vilage might come into custodianship of their Order.
4. The topic of trading gear still needs to be addressed.

Have I missed anything?

3. depends on the Order, some Orders may not hold property like the Dawn, others like the Dragons and the Griffons can. Basically the point here is that only one player at a time may hold the landed title to that property (be it personally or in the name of the Order). There can be only one Baronet of Rebache, for instance.

Edit; I would say the same for the Economic Asset, the wealthy trait it provides would be akin to membership to the Burgher or even Patrician class.

Edit Edit;

1. No renown trading
2. Outpost may be owned by a collective of Players.
3. Villages, Wooden Keep and Stone Keep may only be owned by one Player.

Point 2 is the only definite at this point. I would still argue for renown trading - with limitations. Also I can see a collective of Players investing together in an asset - so long as only one person actually holds the actual title deed, there shouldn't be anything against a group of Players coming together to build something up if they want. Goodness knows that they are expensive enough!

Slightly off topic but how do I collect my money from the wealthy trait?

You should go dig it up, as I assume you buried it in a iron bound chest. But you have to wear and eyepatch and find a parrot first.

But seriously that is a good question. How would one collect on things like this. Is it at GM discretion?

The wealthy trait does not give extra renown. Instead it allows the PC to use money in a variety of ways... bribes, renting a tavern, a villa, etc. It is similar in a way to the perks that priests get... except it is useful for everyone that isn't incorruptible! (Usually priests, amusingly enough.)

Note: The rest of this post sounds bitchy to me, but hopefully it gets the point across. >.> Also I'm just too lazy to re-write in a manner more suited to what I intended. <.<

I've been firm in all the planning that adding in a true economic side of the game (renown, not RP economics) would be harmful. It forces players to choose between spending in the here and now, and investing instead. By experience, most of us take the long view, and so invest, which risks putting the RP into a 'build-up' stage rather than hitting the ground running. Build-ups aren't innately a problem, but they've been known to knock all sorts of games into a rut where the build-up/armsrace never ends. It's something I used my GM veto on in the early stages of planning this. That said, as we work on polishing the other aspects of the RP, we might discuss some less 'farmy' ways to earn extra renown. Jing Ming proposed a trade caravan option that we'll present to you after we see how this event goes. What would make that more helpful than normal 'buy an economic asset, profit' is the RP generation it could aid. Not to mention the heavy risk!

Anyway... no free renown yet. You'll have to earn it! The only real economic parts that we have so far are more/different troops, and better equipment. The more powerful your characters become, the more dangerous/important/potent/special the actions they can take... and thus earn more renown. That is in the scope of the RP though, rather than being a side-aspect.

Quote :

Slightly off topic but how do I collect my money from the wealthy trait?

What Isabel said. You have a lot of money somewhere and you RP it as you please. Money isn't the same as influence, though. And money isn't necessarily "money": it may be a handful of jewels, a single bar of gold, ownership title of a copper mine, several trading boats, an averagely successful enterprise, etc.

Unless you specify otherwise, other characters know that you're wealthy due to the quality of your clothes, weapons etc.

This trait can be earned or stolen by RP.

Alright! So, do we wish to allow the trading of small amounts of renown? Something like 10-20% of total renown, or in the ballpark of 20 renown max? It's tough to know how much that might be until after the first event. Or we can keep it simple and go with no trading of renown.

Whichever way we decide on that issue, should equipment/horses be tradeable? Troops will certainly not be on the table for trades. What about economic assets?

Next up for those interested (I'm pretending there are a few of you!), how shall we define our two types of ships? We've settled on having smaller and faster ships than the hulking warships of early-modern Europe. It's partially difficult as the advances in Western shipbuilding came at the same time as cannon technology spread. In the north they relied on largely sail-driven ships with large castles for archers, while in the Mediterranean they maintained large fleets of equally large oar-powered galleys well-through the 17th century. I've originally defined the Sea Viper (as a galley) as a single-masted vessel with a few rows of oars. Largely we need to decide on how many crewmen (that must stay with the ship) are on each type of ship.

Is this going to be like a greek Trireme where there were some oarsmen/oarslaves with a few marines?

Personally, I'm more of a fan of that kind of ship, the galleys and such with rams. Similar to the Greeks but with the Roman style marines that would board the opposing ship. After all this is Pendor, close quarters brawls are common so I don't see them coming up with a style where you sit back and take pot shots at the opposing ship. Though if you put a catapult on the ship that might be a tad more effective.

If the Sea Viper has a few rows of oars I'm going to ballpark it and say that there are maybe 5 oars on each side or so, with 1 or maybe 2 men per oar depending on how big and heavy the ship is. So 10 to 20 rowers and the PCs troops could be the "marines" should anything like that occur on the open seas.

However, the 2nd type of ship available is a Carrack, and if my memory serves that was a bigger ship that used sails and not oars. Seeing as it's a bigger ship it would likely need a bigger crew, so maybe the number of crewmen for a galley and then add another 1/3 to that total.

I am on the fence about sharing renown, I can see it being useful of you can help your fellow order member out and give him 1 or 2 if he is short of it. But if someone was that short then they might try to do something interesting rpwise to earn it for themself.

Equipment is unique to a knight, they shouldn't give it to another knight, but maybe we could implement the idea of giving it to some of their retainers. That might be a bit overly complex though as things progress.

And my opinion is a rousing no for economic assets. It seems a bit too big to do that if we are not going to allow troop swapping

By economic assets I mean RP ones that grant the wealthy trait. The deed to a mine, a trading ship, an inn on the road between Sarleon and Marleons, etc. Whatever asset it is the PC owns, it serves only for RP and granting the wealthy trait. I should have said Economic Assets!

Troop swapping is because they're mostly Order troops... who aren't going to permanently fight for some other Order. I don't imagine either Grandmaster would look favorably on such an exchange.

I know what you meant. Seeing as an economic asset is 60 renown, and I'll have to confirm that is the right amount, I don't remember, it seems like a big chunk of change would be getting thrown around there.

And if Mordred's calculation on page 1 of this thread is any indication, that is more than an entire event worth of renown.

On the calculation matter, that amount of renown isn't appropriate for these renown costs. If we end up going with smaller amounts like that (28 average) then we would reduce the costs of nearly everything as well.

How much renown is actually handed out will be played with through this event. Once we've finished it, or are close to the end, we'll share whatever we've come up with for input. At the moment very few actions have been undertaken that might grant renown, however.

You admins have some time to play with amounts at any rate, this event will take a good deal of time to get anywhere close to finishing I'm estimating.

Back to this! Are there objections to the trading of equipment (weapons, armor, horses)?

Are there any items that you'd like to see added to this list?

Just to settle a likely never relevant outstanding issue...

Galleys will be single masted ships, with 30 crewmen.

Barques will be triple masted ships with 60 crewmen.

Sailors fight during ship combat and the like, but cannot be used on land.

I assume that peoples land troops would act as the marines in this case? Of course we'd have to take into consideration that if for example a Mettenheim Forlorn Hope was in this situation and he fell overboard in his heavy plate he would drown.

Extra troops may act as marines, yes.

If the ships have been grappled or any such, then the crew will fight as well.

On second thought, we can leave the ships more general. Galley=1 sail, 30 crew. Barque= 3 sails, 60 crew.

This gives us room to customize a bit, as there are so very many ship designs out there. Still no cannons, however.

Are there any other outstanding issues on renown and/or stuff on this list?

Can we put catapults on the ships?

Siege engines and other such devices are something we haven't discussed yet. In the admin board we have 'Jing Ming's Workbench' that I was going to add them to. They are something we'll need to deal with, but there isn't a need for them at all just yet.

Sooo.... we'll see in a bit!

Isabel Tenorio wrote:

Siege engines and other such devices are something we haven't discussed yet. In the admin board we have 'Jing Ming's Workbench' that I was going to add them to. They are something we'll need to deal with, but there isn't a need for them at all just yet.

Sooo.... we'll see in a bit!

I'm calling dibs on Kamos-batteries!

Oooof course you are....

Can it be assumed that every character has a back up blade, nothing fancy, just a stilletto or somthing. I don't think it is much of a stretch seeing as many knights would have carried one to kill or force a surrender from an opponent that had been knocked from their horse/off their feet.